Handley page Hampden crashed in Schoonebeek - Niederlande 21 december 1941

[Benw010]

In 21 december 1941 crashed a Handley Page Hampden in Schoonebeek - Niederlande.
Der flieger Reginald Hartgroves behauptet (gestorben 1998), das das flugzeug angeschossen ist durch Flak in Oldenburg, dabei ist der navigator Tony Carter getotet.
Zuruck nach England hat das Flugzeug problemen gehat und ist in Schoonebeek geland (schwer beschadigt).
Werner Gerhardt (OFW) 3./JG1 behauptet, das er mit ein ME bf 109 das flugzeug in 21 december 1941 angeschossen hat.

Wie kan ich das kontrollieren ?

Der H.P Hampden ist 21-22 december 1941 examiert durch Deutsche polizei (armee).
Sind da noch attests irgendwo ?

Welcher Flakabteiling war in Oldenburg stationiert in 21 december 1941 ?

Wie kan mir helfen (wichtig fur sohn von Reginald Hartgroves - name Nick).

Entschuldigen meine Deutsche sprache.

Danke fur antwort

 

[McMaster]

Hampden AE151 Information
Type Hampden
Serial Number AE151
Squadron 106
X1D ZN-?
Operation Intruder
Date 1 21st December 1941
Date 2 21st December 1941

Further Information

"Serial Range AE115 - AE159. 45 HP52 Hampden Mk.B.1. Part of a batch of 425 HP52 Hampden B.1. AD719-AD768; AD782-AD806; AD824-AD873; AD895-AD939; AD959-AD988; AE115-AE159; AE184-AE203; AE218-AE267; AE286-AE320; AE352-AE401; AE418-AE442. Delivered by The English Electric Co. (Preston) between Oct40 and Oct41. AD734; AD908; AD977; AE194; AE231; AE307; AE310; AE363 were converted to Hampden TB (Torpedo Bomber) and transferred to the USSR. After the 'L' and 'N' serial numbers, which were mainly allocated before the outbreak of hostilities, the serial numbers did not run continuously as small groups of numbers were deliberately omitted. The object of this subterfuge was to confuse the enemy in regard to the actual number of aircraft being built. Airborne 1210 from Coningsby. Cause of loss not established. Crashed at Schoonebeek (Drenthe), 14 km S of Emmen, Holland. P/O Carter is buried in Oud Schoonebeek General Cemetery. F/S R.S.Hartgroves PoW P/O A.Carter KIA Sgt R.Yearsley PoW Sgt D.Martin Inj F/S R.S.Hartgroves was interned in Camps 7A/383/L7, PoW No.90128. Also recorded with the PoW No.130 (?). Sgt D.Martin was confined in Hospital due injuries. No PoW No. Sgt R.Yearsley in Camps 383/L7, PoW No.136. (Possibly PoW No.90136). "

Information from Lost Bombers Website

 

[McMaster]

From the Book: Bf 109 Defence of the Reich Aces

 

[Benw010]

Hampden AE151 information

McMaster,

Viele, viele dank.

Darf ich in zukunft nog weitere fragen stellen ?

Ik schreibe ein grosse artikel im zeitung uber die Handley Page Hampden und ich habe viele kontakt mit der sohn (Nick) von der pilot Reginald Stanley Hardgroves (gestorben 1998).
Reginald hat behauptet, das der Hampden schwer beschadigt ist durch ein Flak in Oldenburg en hat niemals gesprochen uber ein ME bf 109.
Sein sohn Nick kann das einfach nicht glauben.
Wass ist wahrheit ?

Gruss,

Ben

 

[McMaster]

I have no problem with questions! So, go on.

By the way: It was the 6th kill from Werner Gerhardt and the time was 16.30h.

 

[Benw010]

H.P. hampden --- what is true ?

Reading between the lines, I can now understand why Werner Gerhardt was so desperate to claim a victory for his Gruppe at Jever, being "so far from the action" and having an "almost entirely uneventful" 3 months.

I am now even more convinced that Werner's was a spurious, opportunistic claim. I do believe he was there at the time and let off some machine gun fire. Whether he actually scored a hit is very debateable. The Hampden's fate was sealed over Oldenburg and it was destined to undergo an emergency landing at Schoonebeek under pilot control, irrespective of Werner's intervention. I do not wish to cause offence to his surviving relatives, but I feel satisfied in my mind that if he had engaged the Hampden, my father and his two remaining crew would have been aware and would have mentioned this "fact" to others over the intervening years. There would have been nothing for them to gain from suppressing this sensational detail.

In 21-22 december 1941 the Germans examined the H.P Hampden, but without that report I never find the true.
Is it possible that Werner Gerhardt didn't tell the true ?
Was a German pilot not checked about the victory ?
MCMaster what is true ?

 

[McMaster]

When you look at the time, when Fw. Gerhardt should score this kill, then I would say it was a good daylight at 16.30h.
Also I think that there was 1 more Bf 109 from the JG 1 in the air to confirm the kill.
The german pilots only get the kill, when there was another pilot, who has confirmed the victory.

Deutsche Piloten bekamen nur dann einen Luftsieg offiziell anerkannt wenn dieser von ihnen persönlich erreicht wurde und von einem Zeugen bestätigt werden konnte.

From wikipedia:

In 1914–18, different air services also had different methods of assigning credit for kills. The German Luftstreitkräfte credited only one pilot for each victory, and only for enemy planes assessed as destroyed or captured after examining the enemy aircraft on the ground; most aerial fighting was over German lines and so this was impractical for the Allied air forces.
In World War II, the Luftwaffe continued the tradition of "one pilot, one kill", and now referred to top scorers as experten.

 

[Benw010]

H.P. Hampden crash in Schoonebeek 21 december 1941

McMaster,

Viele dank.

Gruss,

Ben